Lightly edited for readability. Speaker 2: Welcome to The Business of Marketing podcast. My name's John Horsley, host of the show today. I have the pleasure of being joined by Kahlen Macaulay, who is, uh, Head of Sports, Media, and Partnerships International at Snap Inc. Welcome to the show today.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: What would be great to understand is perhaps a few of the experiences that you've had along the way that's led y- you to where you are today.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I kind of never intended to work in sports or, or sports media. I really wanted to work for the United Nations, actually. I grew up in Vienna and G- and Geneva, so, um, that was always what I wanted to do. But, um, after graduating, I found a need to earn some money, so I went and did that for a little bit, doing something that was a little bit soulless. I won't go into that too much detail. Um, but then decided that if I was gonna be successful at something, I needed to do something I really was excited about, and sports has always been part of my life. Played sports, connected with people all over the world through it, and had the opportunity to sort of reset my career, and I ended up working, um, at Talksport, um, in an entry sale, entry-level sales role. Having airtime to direct advertisers, which was, uh, really at the cutting edge. But that kind of got me into then sponsorship. Then I got into sort of media, ESPN, working on their sales teams on digital. And then I kind of had a little bit of a pivot, an opportunity to work for a startup called Pulse Live that builds websites, apps, digital service provider, essentially for the sports industry. Builds the websites for Premier League, World Rugby, et cetera, and that was my first real technology-orientated, uh, environment. And from there, I was fortunate enough to work at the International Olympic Committee, where I led their digital partnerships function, so how they, um, distribute content, uh, around the world, how they build momentum. We called it sort of the flame to flame strategy of creating interest around the Olympics on an always-on basis. And really, like, their pivot towards a D2C, direct-to-consumer, um, sort of digital, uh, product. Um, and from there, um, I have come to join Snapchat about sort of nearly, nearly seven years ago now, where I lead, as you said, the sports and media partnerships function, and that's really helping, um, our partners, uh, be it sports organizations, media brands, broadcasters, rights holders, teams, athletes, connect with our audiences and leverage the platform to achieve their business goals.
Speaker 2: So you've very much built a career at the intersection of sport, media, and technology. Looking back across that career journey, what have been the most interesting shifts in terms of how sport's produced, distributed, and, and consumed?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's, it's... I'm getting on a wee bit now. And, uh , you know, when I started in 2008, you know, the App Store had just launched, the iPad hadn't been invented yet, and, you know, the whole c- concept of sort of digital content consumption was just growing and growing. I think a really cool stat that sticks with me from a Two Circles report, which was that, like in 2008, something like 100 and... The amount of content being created, there was a, equivalent would take you 114,000 years, uh, 15... Sorry, 15,000 years to watch and consume all that content. In 2024, that number's gone to 115,000 years, which is kind of insane. So the amount of content has just exploded, and that's through technology, um, of course, making it ubiquitous everywhere, making it available. And I think then the opportunity to sort of customize that and personalize it has only grown. So we have this interesting, uh, evolution of, like, a wealth of content, more content than you could possibly consume, and that creates an interesting, um, dilemma for sports organizations, but also opportunities to how you can create more engagement around your sport and win this kind of battle for eyeballs, let's say. So I think the evolution from a sports organization perspective is once there used to be sort of governance roles, leagues, you know, really focused on the sport itself, and now the ones that are really growing still have to maintain that, have to think more like a, a media organization that is in the game of entertainment. Um, those that are doing that, I think is, are, are really winning.
Speaker 2: So you talk about the proliferation of, of content, and I, I imagine it would be massively fragmented in terms of where it's dispersed. Um, has that changed the way that fans consume content, and particularly the, the younger, the younger individuals?
Speaker 3: Yeah. I, I think there's naturally been an evolution there. Um, you think about the ubiquitous nature of sort of highlights everywhere. You know, even five years ago it wasn't as, as prevalent as it is today. Um, and on Snapchat, we see that happening every single day, right? In terms of content being consumed. What we see here is that Snapchat is a place where people connect with their friends and their, and their family and their, their close connections. Um, and that brings a unique side to it, too. So one, you go in there to message your, the people you care about the most, but also you stay for the content, and you gather around those sports moments that drive, really, conversation. So I think we've seen an evolution for sure, but it's always growing. It's always continuing to evolve. And I think there's a kind of philosophy that younger audiences are, are not necessarily interested in sports. I think we see that to be the opposite. It's actually they are interested. They're just consuming it very differently. They're not necessarily staying for the full 90 minutes, or if they are, they're definitely using their phones, uh, to message their friends, communicate, and, and sort of lean in there. So it brings a wealth of opportunities, also challenges as well, for, for organizations that are trying to sort of create real attention-grabbing content.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So on one side, younger people are becoming, I guess, broadcasters within their own right, commentators and so on. They have audiences that are the consumers of the content or the, the hybrid forms of content that they're creating as well. What role do platforms such as Snap play in, in helping- I guess league teams, broadcasters, sponsors perhaps as well, reach those audiences?
Speaker 3: Well, we reach, um, you know, nearly a billion people every single month. Uh, 74 million daily active users, and, and 90% of... We reach 90% of 13 to 24-year-olds in over 25 markets. So we really are the place where younger audiences are coming, spending their time. And I think, you know, when we talk about the, the opportunity for sports organizations, thinking more as media brands, and thinking about creating engagement, uh, beyond the sort of 90 minutes or however long, you know, the four hours or whatever it might be, that presents a unique opportunity. We allow them to sort of build a wave of interest and visibility amongst... of their sport, and make it relevant, because this is where people are spending their time. Young audiences are spending their time. They're opening the app 50 times a day. Uh, they're going to message with their friends. And so if you're not in that conversation, you're really missing out, and that's the same for brands as well. An amazing sponsorship of a huge temple event, but if you're not thinking about the activation of how you bring that to people in the spaces where they spend their time, then you're really missing out. And so with sports organizations, we really help them to connect the dots a little bit. And the ones who really see the most success understand that fandom is created at a younger age, and so they see it as an investment with- to brand build. You know, if you've not... Like, I grew up abroad, so cricket for me is very difficult to follow. Like, I appreciate cricket, but I'm not a huge fan, and because I was never exposed to it as a younger, younger kid. Conversely, like I spent time growing up watching skiing, playing football. Those are rooted for me for- forever, and I think that concept of lifetime fandom and the investment at early ages to create those hooks, you know, pays off in the longer term.
Speaker 2: So has this, and I think you've touched on it really, transformed the way that sports organizations are, are now thinking about content and perhaps production of it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, 100%. I mean, the, um, what you now need to do... And, and it's interesting also because a lot of it is done for the sake of doing it as opposed to real link to business objectives. You know, you see often a content team operating in isolation of business. Um, the marketing team not connected with the sales and commercial team. And I think the organizations that understand it the most in sports are ones where they realize that they are in a long-term, um, not a battle 'cause that's a bit too harsh a word, but like a competition let's say for attention, and it's about the attention economy. And, and I think when they have that philosophy and they integrate that at the core of their business, then that becomes self, you know, self-fulfilling in a way. It almost drives everything. It drives the commercial rights proposition longer term. If you have an audience who's watching your sport at a younger age when you come to sell those rights, they're valued more. You're creating more appointments to view around live. You're maintaining a conversation in between. And when you're a sponsor then, when you're appealing to commercial advertisers, you're bringing many more opportunities for them to create hooks into that audience. The value proposition of sports, that power of sports as a connector, the fandom element of it, it's something special. It's something privileged that, you know, sports has been passively, um, you know, it's been in spite of not because of. And I think now they're realizing, right, if we want to maintain this, we can't just do the basics. We need to think about it more cohesively and as a strategy for our wider business.
Speaker 2: Are they moving away from the idea of having to create the content themselves to perhaps adopting and, and partnering with fans and, and fan-created content?
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think the rise of personality-led content, you know, proximity, you know, as well, it's human storytelling is still so powerful, right? And I think when we see creators and athletes as, as personalities themselves, it brings you closer to, to the sport. So it's interesting because maybe even like five years ago, excuse me, the creators would almost be outside the ropes and it'd be seen as a bad thing. You know, "Oh my goodness, they are threatening our audience. They're, they're winning off on the backs of what we're doing." And I think that is necessarily like in, maybe it's dispelled now, but only five years ago that was the case, right? It's like infringement on IP. This, this is our, our playground, don't come in it. And actually what they realize is that by embracing that they can create new content, build their audience, reach a, a bigger audience, sort of upper funnel marketing essentially that creates an appointment to sort of view, but also creates curiosity and interest, you know, exposure to things that they wouldn't other- otherwise have seen with audience they wouldn't be speaking to. So there's one thing, you have to service the core audience of course with a great sports proposition, but you also need to be thinking about growing the overall audience through opportunities, and creators present an exciting way to bring new audiences in.
Speaker 2: You got any, uh, examples in terms of how perhaps brands, um, sports businesses, associations, you know, that ecosystem are collaborating and, and kind of connecting with the creator economy?
Speaker 3: 100%. Yeah. I mean, you know, we see, um, you know, Jake Paul, for example, uh, fighting Anthony Joshua on DAZN. You know, that's a perfect example where it's almost like they're not just creating content, they are the content now. Um, and that's an interesting evolution. Um, on our side, we see when we send creators to events, um, we work with Serie A, we work, uh, with the Olympics, we work with many organizations, Formula 1, and we, we bring creators that are not necessarily sports creators, maybe fashion influencers, music influencers. That also creates an amplifier effect. Um, and I think this is also quite interesting thinking about the role of sports in the lives of young people. They're more interested in the intersection of sports with fashion, culture, and music, let's say, than, than just sports in isolation. And as soon as a sports organization is to think more broadly about their positioning- And the opportunities that exist if you can do that overlap, that creates a, a huge amplifier effect.
Speaker 2: So within your role, you focus heavily on partnerships, clearly, within sports leagues, uh, media companies, rights owners, rights holders. What makes the, the most successful partnership i- within that type of an environment?
Speaker 3: They're all different, and, and they all have different goals and objectives, so I think understanding that first and foremost is, is key. But, you know, the value exchange ultimately is, is what it's, is success, right? What is, what is, what are we getting out of it? What are they getting out of it? For, for them, I think, as I said, we bring in a new audience, a younger audience. Present they can test things that they might not be able to do in a really rights restricted environment and, like, learn. And we want to help them do that. I think within the Snapchat sports proposition as well, it's much more than just content. You know, we have three real pillars of the application. We have communication, where people are messaging, uh, each other, and we power that communication through things like augmented reality lenses, through Bitmoji, the world's most used avatar, through a whole range of different things, stickers, filters, lenses, et cetera. We have the content side of the business, which is then, you know, video content as it would be, both from sports organizations but also from, um, creators, also from people creating content around it themselves and sharing with their friends. And then we have the camera, so our AR lenses. And I think when you look at that holistically, that presents many opportunities for a sports organization to think of as less as a video or social media platform, but really as a marketing platform for achieving their organizational goals. And so I talked about the audience, you know, 90% of 13 to 24-year-olds use Snapchat on a monthly basis, 75% of 13 to 34-year-olds in those 25 markets as well. That presents an incredible opportunity for... that they can't reach elsewhere. And so we, we do that, and the value exchange for us is we're able to work with them to super serve the interests of our audience and make it more relevant to them so they spend, um, you know, more time with their friends engaging around sports.
Speaker 2: Are there common or, or, you know, often big misconceptions that s- sports organizations sometimes have around working with digital platforms?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Fears perhaps that, that, you know, need to be overcome, dispelled?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it's, it's evolving. I'd say, you know, over the last, in my time at Snapchat, we've definitely gone from a place of, like, you know, we were talking about before with the creators to some extent, no, you're outside the rope. You're not here. This is, this is you, this is us. I think, um, we've seen it change a lot. The evolution of, like, the concept of it cannibalizing audiences was always one that was, was touted. I think now we see it being as complementary and additive. So we're able to create more hype and more interest and more excitement around a live event by making it relevant, by people talking about it, and that creating an appointment to view, and it's all additive. Um, and then the opportunity for those sports organizations to take that audience and, and work them through to, "Hey, I'm gonna go and play this," or, "I'm gonna go and watch a live match," or, "I'm gonna go buy a ticket," or, "I'm gonna purchase a, a, a jersey," you know, that's a whole, like, upper to lower marketing funnel conversation, right? And we do a lot at the top here whilst also serving at the bottom as well. So we can do those whole pathways and help them.
Speaker 2: Great. Um, yeah, sport's always been about collaborative or, or shared experiences. You-
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah
Speaker 2: ... you live the experience. You're there. You're in the stadium. Um, and it's also being watched by millions of fans at the same time a- around the world. How do platforms recreate that sense of community?
Speaker 3: Well, I, I think the strength of Snapchat is the community. You know, they, they... Snapchat is a place where close friends connect with their family and the people they care about the most. So already there is a huge sense of community and connection. That is part of the Snapchat proposition, right? That's one of our points of differentiation. That's why we're at a record audience. That's why we're continuing to grow because people want more connection with the people they care about. Less about broadcasting ourselves to the world and more about powering those friendships you have. And what we see is that during live sports, we see that, you know, 75% of Snapchatters are using the app whilst watching live sports. So they're using that to connect, to talk about the moments that are happening on the pitch, and that in itself is a community. Now, there's private and public communities, you know, that you can see. And I think what we want to do is make sure that brands can actually insert themselves into those conversations and those relationships that fans have with their sport in meaningful and additive ways. Now, you can do y- you know, a lot of things that are sort of a bit throwaway, but if you really have a good sense of what your ambition is and how you can add value to that interchange, or instead of me sending a, a message to my friend when Scott... Scott McTominay scored that incredible overhead kick against Denmark and has taken us to the World Cup, instead of just being a bore, like, "Let's go," you know, I can now send a, a Snap with the Scotland t- top with McTominay jumping over my head, and that becomes more fun. And then if you think about the brand opportunity of that, being relevant in those live moments, that's a huge opportunity. You know, one of the campaigns I love is, is Domino's, you know, letting you know that if you order your pizza now, it'll be here by halftime. You can do that in s, in s- on Snapchat with sponsored snaps straight into the, into the feed and give those messages and power those communities in, in fun and interesting ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in a way that re- remains relevant to them as well rather than interruptive.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think that's the key. There's so many things around how can we do that, how can we do this. Uh, if you base it on, like, what is the value you're creating here, what is the added experience. You know, we all know y- you know, and this is an interesting line as well because if you tip it over and you're not adding value, you're almost better off not doing anything, you know? Because it becomes a negative piece. But if you are adding real value and powering connection, then it's y- you know, it's seamless.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's easy almost.
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about other formats such as, you know, AR or immersive content and how s- interactive media is becoming part of the sports experience. What does that look like in practice?
Speaker 3: Come to the right place. Snapchat, um, we've been investing in augmented reality specifically, um, for, for over a decade now. And so we have, uh, 350 million people using augmented reality on Snapchat every single day, and that's to express themselves, everything from, um, putting a vomiting rainbows, which we started with, to now trying on the new Nike Air Force 1s, to putting on the kit of your choice, to swiping up to buy it, to seeing live stats visualizing the world around you. For us, we believe that augmented reality s- in particular is the future of... You know, and by augmented reality, I'm talking about digital computing overlaid on the physical world. We believe that's the next big shift in media, and we've been investing for a long time to sort of build that. Um, we have the technology, we have the audience and behavior. Um, and it brings really interesting opportunities, uh, for sports organizations. Um, as an example, we've brought our augmented reality technology now into third-party mobile applications and apps. So the lenses you can see in Snapchat can now be integrated into, you know, the app of the NFL or the Olympics or whatever it might be. Um, but also in stadiums, um, if you remember, like, the weird kiss cam, uh, experiences in stadiums, really awkward, really like-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 3: ... bit, bit gross, bit strange. Now you can put augmented reality onto those fans, broadcast them on the big screen, turn them into a Disney character, turn them into... We have a tongue twister one, make it funny. Some of the stuff in the US, we've had it in over... You now have Snapcam integrated in over 50 stadiums in the US, and it goes viral. Like, you know, they, uh, the presenters in stadium sort of not trolling, but like putting our... the crying lens on fans who've lost and putting them on the big screen. And it's just a bit of fun, but it creates-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 3: ... a whole new dimension to the fan- live fan sports experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I, I hear you. Um-
Speaker 2: ...
Speaker 3: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... augmented.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And we've got these sunglasses on.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And we went down, up, down, and, uh-
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah
Speaker 2: ... we, we realized you could do something with your hand, and it would change the glasses and, and we spent quite a bit of time interacting with that and filming it and, and having-
Speaker 3: Yeah
Speaker 2: ... fun with it.
Speaker 3: And, and, you know, that's where we're at. We... Snapchat's about having fun and, and creating moments that are, you know, enjoyable, playful. And you know, it's interesting because a lot of technology, the, the amount... We should never underestimate the power of fun in terms of creating value, you know? Like, life... Sport is meant to be fun. That's why we all love sport. Originally, we started playing it. It, it's about fun connection, and we shouldn't forget that. It can get too serious at times, and Snapchat's a really good way of bringing it back to fun, and also in the process, making it more appealing to a wider audience. You know, we've all been there. If you, you know people who might not be interested in sport, it can be quite a barrier. It can be quite intimidating, you know, almost tribalistic. Like, if you don't know who Harry Kane is or Saka or whoever it might be, it's like, ah. But actually, you want to be part of the World Cup party, you know, even if you don't care really about the result or, you know, you wanna have fun with other people.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And that's interesting, too.
Speaker 2: And we've just touched on it, World Cup.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: This July, right?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So what are you doing around the World Cup?
Speaker 3: Well, first, I'm gonna be supporting Scotland. Uh, you know, we've got a great group. Uh, easy one with Brazil in there. Uh, but no, delighted to, um, to be there, one, as a Scotland fan. But from a Snapchat perspective, these moments are, are much bigger than obviously what's happening on the pitch. You know, they are huge moments that everything's talking, talking about. From the, the England kit just being launched, um, to, you know, the, the hype around the people playing, who's gonna be in the squad, to those moments like, you know, Saudi Arabia beating Messi's Argentina in the opening game that they had. Um, so for us, it's really about empowering and, and, and powering those, that conversation, that connection, um, bringing people into it. So we will have things like augmented reality lenses where you can show off your fandom with your friends. We will have content from partners like Copa90, from Football Co. We'll have a creator program where people are, are creating content, both well-known personalities and lesser well-known, to create the capture, bring, bring the, bring to life really what's happening in the US around the world and, and really supercharge those conversations, uh, in fun ways. So we're excited about it. It's gonna be incredible. Um, and we, um, have more ambition than ever before.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I look at events, at, such as the World Cup as a, as a... It's a cultural celebration.
Speaker 3: 100%.
Speaker 2: It's, it's a festival of that. Um, I like going to the pub.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Um, I've seen promotions in pubs before that frankly have been a bit lame, or they only put it on when it's an England game and, and they kind of miss the point.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I look at it and think, "Well, hang on, there's an opportunity here. Why aren't you celebrating the food of that country and changing your menu up and doing various other things to, to bring people in?" So I, I would imagine within your business that you have influencers, you have tribes, as it were, uh, and you'll, you'll probably see that ripple effect and that dynamic, um, cutting across everything and everything that, uh, people are interested in.
Speaker 3: A- absolutely. Right. Like, it's, it's coming back to that, the role of sport within the, the wider attention span of people and younger audiences and how they like the blur of sport into fashion, into music. Those connections are really strong. Uh, and food as well. And so something like the World Cup, you know, you'll suddenly be playing, like, Scotland's playing Haiti, right? You know, that'd be quite fun to have, like, a Haiti-themed night. What do we know about Haiti? You know, what's the food like? What's this? You know, those things will be happening. Creators will be talking about that. Uh, Copa90, uh, on Snapchat are going around the US touring different cities and states to sort of meet fan groups from all over the world, get an understanding of that culture, bring it to life. So it's not just about the 90 minutes. Of course, that's huge, and that's the driver for everything else. But the rippled effect of those 90 minutes is much bigger and actually, you know, something that's almost more powerful, in essence, sometimes than, than even what's happening on the pitch. So yeah, the celebration will be happening across Snapchat with all these fun experiences, um, whilst also making sure that we are super serving our sports fans who want to see the highlights, who want to get behind-the-scenes footage from the French national team, the locker room. Erling Haaland, who's a massive Snapchatter, um, and he's using that because He feels safe using it. You know, uh, Erling Haaland is really showing up as the, the na- the person behind the name on the shirt, and I think that's the difference with Snapchat when it comes to athletes is we don't have followers, likes, comments, and so we have a freedom, uh, and that's deliberate in nature since the start, um, that allows athletes and personalities to be themselves without fear of reprisal. And I think athletes, we're seeing a huge growth in athletes using Snapchat because of that, because they can have a conversation with their audiences, but in a way that they can control it and they can not just be, you know, their super polished self. It's them in an ice bath or having a steak or playing FIFA with their friends. You know-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 3: ... it's slightly different.
Speaker 2: Gonna change the subject slightly. So, you know, let's just talk about leadership for a moment. You've worked across several, well, many, um, sports cultural-type organizations. From a global sports body to technology platforms and so on that we, we kinda name-checked earlier, what have you learned about leadership throughout that journey?
Speaker 3: Well, it's a journey, is one. Uh, I think that's the first thing as a leader is you never have reached it. Um, and I think, you know, perspective is also good to have. You know, when you're starting out, don't forget that feeling you had of being intimidated and nervous, and you remember the people who gave you an opportunity or asked your opinion. And so my role as a leader is to sort of bring people up around me and inspire people as well. Um, and I think for me, you know, working... They're very different environments I've worked in, right? Like, um, you know, the IOC as a governing body is very different to Snapchat as a technology sort of, you know, platform. So, um, you know, how you navigate those different rooms and how you show up is really key. But I think the, for me it's about a few things. Um, you know, understanding that taking your time to think about things is really important. You know, I, I think if I was saying sort of to my younger self, it would be about sort of investing time to really think about how you approach a conversation and what the opportunities are, and don't just rush in. I think as a leader, my job is to sort of understand and hear people and know that I can be shaped by things. I might know a lot about a particular thing, but I am always open to new perspectives and, and inputs that can change how I feel about things.
Speaker 2: For, yeah, for people looking to build careers in sports media today, what capabilities do you think matter most?
Speaker 3: Um, I, I think the concept of, like, focusing on sport is probably a falsehood. I wouldn't necessarily, if you're looking to get into sports media, focus like, "This has to be it." I'd say figure out, you know, what you're good at and, and double down on that, and then think about how you can get into the space of sports with that expertise, because adding value to the equation is, is really key. So I think, like, be open, um, be curious. I think curiosity is, is key. You know, too often you think, "I wish I'd said that," you know, if I, you come out the meeting. Or, "I, I thought about that." Think about that before, and think about what you might ask and, and don't be afraid to ask. I think the other thing is interesting, like, ask people for mentorship. You know, be open about it. There's nothing better than being asked, oh, for your opinion, right? It's a form of flattery. And it- people respond really well to it, and I've only just discovered that, you know, in recent years. And I wish as a younger, uh, someone at the start of my career, I wish I'd asked for more support, more mentorship, um, and more guidance as well. I think that would've definitely helped me move up quicker.
Speaker 2: And there's a flip side to that as well. The, the mentor can gain at the same time through reverse mentorship.
Speaker 3: Be so. I mentor two people, and actually, like, I'm always wondering like, "Why are you, why are you asking me?" Like, "You guys know this stuff." And, but it gives you a whole perspective as well, keeps you fresh, and I think that's the key to your earlier question around leadership, is making sure you are not just, um, you know, staying in the same place, that you're always growing and evolving.
Speaker 2: Few quick fire questions. So the most innovative sports league right now?
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna call... Uh, I mean, it's, it's unfair to call out one, but one that's fresh to me is the PGA Tour. They just had the Players Championship last week, and an incredible competition. But then right after that, they released a documentary fol- called Chasing Sunday, where they actually featured the audio, uh, clips of, of the, of the players playing. Four- they followed four, four players. That, to me, is the nether level of, um, you know, what's possible when it comes to sports media, the insight from the athletes, the audio. And it's no coincidence that Brian Rolapp, their commissioner, has come from NFL, where they have an NFL mic'd up show. So for me, that, right now, I think PGA Tour and the way they're thinking about how to make golf, you know, and ride the wave of how golf is so popular again right now amongst the younger audience. This is exactly perfectly, you know, on spot. And it's doing something that's not super technical or innovative. It's putting audio on players and bringing that to people, which is what sports fans want.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One marketing trend in sports that's either over hi- hyped or perhaps undervalued?
Speaker 3: Um, I, I d- like, over-hyped, you know, I don't wanna call out anything particularly, but, like, to me, I like the hype. I think the hype is a sign that people are trying to be different and trying to do something different, you know? And, and it might not work, and I think there's a danger of, you know, stepping onto something that's not right for your business, but hype is good in my opinion and, and, you know, it shows that you're thinking about things differently. If there's no hype, you're not doing anything differently, and I think to me, trying to get on those trends, trying to understand them, and then see which ones are right for you is key. So I would say going into hypes without, without thinking about what your business value proposition is is, you know, a dangerous thing to do.
Speaker 2: Think I know the answer to this, but-
Speaker 2: One technology that will reshape sports media?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I, I'm... I think the augmented reality for us is really changing it. You know, that, that is not just sports media, that's consumption overall. I, I think, you know, we for, we at Snapchat are seeing that played out every single day on the application. Um, and we're really excited about what's to come. Um- Both in terms of developing more consumer-focused, um, you know, hardware solutions, but also just in terms of the daily experiences. The... If I look at how our AR experiences have evolved from, from, like I said, vomiting rainbows to now literally Red Bull releasing their car in augmented reality so you can put it in your living room and look at it, you know, that, that's a huge step change, and it's only gonna get more and more. I think the other interesting thing in terms of, if we go back to a, a relatively obvious one, but AI and content distribution, you know, the clipping and real life allowing you to create content that's more personalized, that will also be huge for sports. It already is.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It already is, right? Um, but it's only gonna get more and more, um, bespoke.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's only limited to, to the imagination, right?
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Which is great.
Speaker 3: It's brilliant. And, you know, also, the, the cost of the technology is, is significantly... It- you know, people think about augmented reality and those two words create like, you know, f- for advertisers, for brands, for sports organizations, media, it's like, "Oh, that sounds a bit complicated." You know, but if you think about that in the context of, like, how AI sounded complicated, like, two years ago, it's essentially, like, it's a lot easier than you think. And the technology is there. The people- audiences are using it, you know, 350 million people every day on Snapchat alone. Like, it- the behavior is there, the appetite is there, and there's huge opportunity to create new value and new commercial assets for brands that, you know, wouldn't exist otherwise.
Speaker 2: I love how it's matured. And, and what I mean by that is I remember when AR came out for the first time, and you, you download an app and you couldn't really do a great deal with it. You could point it at a, a packet of Crisps and some monster might come out, and it was like, "Well, yes, so what?" Um, but I love how it's become much more ingrained into, uh, I guess lifestyle, um, and other formats.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, you know, we started out with it, um, you know, if I think about the, the real experiences were not actually in sport, it was in music, and it was artists getting fed up at concerts with, uh, people holding their mobile phone up and just videoing them. And so what we did was we thought, "Well, what about if the mobile phone becomes part of the actual concert itself, an additive to the set experience?" And so creating around the EDC Festival, you know, in tune with the stage would be a trigger for an AR experience, and that then was part of the set design with the artist that then created this incredible experience for fans and it augmented the whole thing. So, yes, um, they're still holding their phones up, and we'll get to a world where they're not having to do that, right? That's our, that's our vision, that's our ambition. But actually, that piece around enhancing the, the experience in a really additive way that takes it to another level is a possibility. And of course, the gimmicky stuff that detracts from the experience is what you need to avoid, but really focusing on the value proposition of how we can make this better is, is key, and I think we're, we're doing that and we're seeing that every day on Snapchat.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's incredible and, and that's truly transformative as well. Just to wrap up, um, a word of wisdom or advice that you'd give to a, a younger person looking to enter a career in, in the world of marketing, advertising. Uh, what should they be thinking in terms of, you know, how, how they could maybe get a foot up or, or get the door open?
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's, it's difficult, right? Um, but I would say take risks and, you know, I've always said yes to things when I've been sort of feeling uncomfortable. Um, the more uncomfortable I feel, the more I want to say yes. Uh, maybe it's a weird thing with me but, but I remember, I think it was Richard Branson who said, like, "Say yes and figure out how to do it afterwards." And I, and I, um, and I do know what I'm talking about generally, but I do think there is something in that. Just sort of say yes and then figure out how you're gonna do it. And I think as a young person, the curiosity, they've got opportunities everywhere, but you have to really look for them and you have to show your enthusiasm, and there's nothing better than somebody who's at the start of their career interrupting me to sort of ask me a question or to ask my opinion or to, like... You know, I'm there for that. And everyone, you know, it feels like a barrier when you're younger and you see people in the, uh, the, in their careers, uh, older and more experienced, and you think, "I don't wanna, I don't wanna bother them." You know, there's actually a real generosity. Every time I've ever asked anyone for any advice or guidance or support or help, it's forthcoming and it's much more than I ever expected. So I would say do that and say yes to things and be curious.
Speaker 2: Perfect. Brilliant words of advice.
Speaker 3: I hope so.
Speaker 2: I think-
Speaker 3: We'll see.
Speaker 2: I think you've been a wonderful guest on the show today.
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for your time.
Speaker 3: No, thanks for having me. It was lovely.
Speaker 2: Really enjoyed the conversation and, and the passion that comes across from you.
Speaker 3: All right. Great. Thanks a lot for having me.